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Labour leader Phil Goff - Source: Q + A -
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PHIL GOFF interviewed by
PAUL
HOLMES
PAUL But we now know it was the Labour Leader Phil
Goff who first raised, with the Prime Minister, the first concerns
about Dr Worth and another woman. Mr Goff believes Mr Key acted too
slowly when he found out last week about a police investigation.
Thank you very much Phil Goff for joining us.
PHIL GOFF - Leader of the Opposition. Good morning
Paul.
PAUL
You have said it very clearly, you believe that Mr
Key acted too slowly - but it was only a week, there was no
suggestion Dr Worth was an axe murderer running around. I mean a
week is pretty fast.
PHIL Well let's make it clear we're talking about
the second case now, the case that I don't know the background
to&.
PAUL Once you heard about the Police
investigation...right, yeah...
PHIL ...but Mr Key said on the programme that he
heard about this a week earlier. Why did it take a week after he
had lost confidence in Dr Worth for him to remove him from his
ministerial responsibilities and his ministerial salary?
PAUL
I suppose because he had a budget coming - his first
budget - and Mr Worth was outside cabinet really, he was internal
affairs Minister.
PHIL
Well that undoubtedly was the answer Paul, but is it
appropriate to leave a person that you've lost confidence in,
fulfilling Ministerial responsibilities, even though you've lost
confidence in him in order not to overshadow your budget.
PAUL
But it was only a week Mr Goff, what damage was done
by Dr Worth staying there?
PHIL
Well generally, if you've lost confidence in somebody
then you remove that person from his position of responsibility as
soon as you've lost confidence in him - to say that you've got a
budget and you don't want to overshadow the budget is not really a
good reason for leaving a person that you no longer have confidence
in.
PAUL
There's another strange development that's happened
too - the woman at the centre of the police investigation appears
to have complained about another man. He strenuously denies
that
anything happened - might Mr Key have rushed to judgement?
PHIL
Well, I think the really curious thing on the Tuesday
morning was that John Key put out a press statement ..
PAUL
This is last Tuesday morning
PHIL ...
last Tuesday morning at 0930 saying this is a
private matter, Dr Worth is going, but he would be making no
further comment about that. By 1130 not only was he making comment,
but he entirely dumped on Richard Worth saying - as you quoted in
the intro to the programme - that he was guilty of conduct that was
unbefitting a Minister - he had in fact at that point acted as
judge, jury and executioner.
So what changed between 0930 and 1130? Well I think what changed
was that the media said you can't possibly say a Minister has
resigned and say you're not going to make comment about it.
PAUL Give us some information. that's right. Let's
clear up your particular bit of business. Your approach to John Key
about this other woman - the Labour Party member in Auckland. When
was this, when did you approach him?
PHIL I rang him, I arranged for a phone call to
him and rang him on the night of the 6th of May, it was about
9-9.30 at night. I said I had a problem, a woman had come to me
with a complaint - the complaint was twofold, one that she had been
offered particular positions under the portfolio of Dr Worth. One
was as an ethnic affairs advisor, the second was as a member of the
Lotteries Grant Board. That would have been OK in itself, curious
because he knew this woman was a Labour party member and I said
that to John Key, but what subsequently occurred indicated that the
offer of those positions was as the basis to developing a sexual
relationship with the woman - I believe that was inappropriate
-
PAUL Hang on, how was that stated though? I mean
was that baldly stated - the jobs are if we can see each
other?
PHIL No, no...in the first instance it was said "I
will offer you these jobs, you will need to resign from the Labour
Party and join the National Party". What subsequently became clear
predominately through telephone calls - and there were dozens and
dozens of telephone calls - was that this was about developing a
sexual relationship, the comments at times were, the woman says,
vulgar, they were sexually explicit.
That is unbecoming of a Minister, but it is from my point of view,
what was wrong - I mean I don't like sleaze and I don't even like
raising sleaze in politics...but was wrong - let me just finish
this point Paul - what was wrong with that is that no Minister
should be offering official positions in response for developing a
relationship with another person.
PAUL Alright, why did you go so quietly to John
Key, why did you want to handle this so quietly?
PHIL Firstly, that was the desire of the woman,
her husband and family, they felt very uncomfortable about this,
they are migrants to this country
PAUL She's a married woman
PHIL .. she's a married woman, this is a Minister
of the Crown that they're dealing with...
PAUL Yes but why did you go quietly...why give,
for example, you're the opposition leader, why give the Prime
Minister, your opponent, a break?.
PHIL Well, well a couple of reasons for that. One
I wanted to protect the privacy of the woman and her family and
secondly, while I feel no compunction to protect Dr Worth, he has a
family as well. I didn't particularly want this sort of thing in
the public arena. And thirdly it seemed to me that this was the
appropriate way of dealing with the issue - to let John Key know
what I'd been told and he told me yes, he'd heard these sort of
rumours before...
PAUL OK, I'm interested in what Key's reaction was
when you went to him with this complaint, did he indicate to you
that there had been other matters in this area that he might have
heard about?
PHIL Yes, he made it very clear to me that he'd
heard rumours of this nature before and that was one of the reasons
why Dr Worth had not been made Speaker in the Parliament he said.
He said that he would follow it up, and I went to him in good faith
and I accepted in good faith that he would follow it up. His Chief
of Staff came not to me but to my private secretary subsequently to
say the matter had been dealt with although Dr Worth had denied
it.
PAUL Well John Key believed his Minister as he had
to...didn't he?
PHIL No, no..
PAUL Just as you people had to believe Winston
Peters last year and said you have to accept the word of an
honourable member. Actually John Key only lasted a week in his
loyalty, you stuck out for months.
PHIL No no I think, look any person is entitled to
be regarded as innocent until proven guilty. In terms of the
criminal complaints I've got no comment about that case, I know
nothing about it.
PAUL Alright
PHIL But in terms of this woman, I felt she was
credible, when I spoke to John Key about &
PAUL Yes but she wanted it to be kept silent,
you've said one of the reasons you went silently to Key was because
you knew the woman didn't want to be embarrassed. So with a police
investigation that was announced was underway last Tuesday, you
suddenly open up and the woman's everywhere.
PHIL No, no that's not true Paul, if you look at
what happened
PAUL And you've convicted the fellow as well
PHIL No no, it was John Key that brought this
matter into the public arena, I had no intention of making a
comment about this matter. John Key raised it with the journalists
in parliament on his way to parliament, he raised it in parliament.
He brought it into the arena, the journalists then came to me to
say well the Prime Minister clearly thinks that you know something
about this, what involvement have you had?
PAUL Right, some very quick answers please Mr Goff
- are those texts that the woman has, still on her phone, are they
still available?
PHIL Some of the texts are, some that she found
particularly offensive she's deleted.
PAUL From what we know of them they weren't
particularly lewd were they?
PHIL No the texts simply create the context for
what happened in the telephone conversation, it was the telephone
conversations where the sexually explicit comments were made that
she regarded as vulgar and offensive.
PAUL In making what you believe was an association
between the offer of a job and some kind of opening a channel for a
sexual relationship, was Dr Worth being corrupt?
PHIL I think he was being inappropriate.
PAUL Corrupt?
PHIL I've said inappropriate
PAUL The National Party board are meeting in
Wellington today, they'll presumably be discussing this matter - we
understand John Key's going to be there. What should happen to Dr
Worth?
PHIL Well, that's a decision for Mr Key, and he
has already said that he believed that the behaviour was
inappropriate, unbefitting a Minister and that really there was a
question over Mr er Dr Worth's continuing position within the
National Caucus and indeed in parliament. What does the complainant
who brought the complaint to me ask for? One thing, one thing only
- that Mr Key honour the promise that he made to her on radio that
he would meet so he could judge her credibility, her sincerity and
her truthfulness because she believes that has been brought into
question.
PAUL Phil Goff I thank you very much for coming on
the programme this morning.
PHIL Thank you Paul
PAUL Thank you very much for your time.
