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Tariana Turia, Maori Party co-leader - Source: Q+A -
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PAUL
Tariana Turia is the co-leader of the Maori Party. Shes also
the Associate Minister of Health, and shes determined on a few
things. She wants to make New Zealand smoke-free by
2025. No more puffing, therefore, for 650,000 Kiwis who free
and the 5000 who die each year due to smoking-related
illnesses. Shes already got the Government to agree in
principle to plain packaging for cigarettes, she wants a ban on
smoking in cars, and it looks as though cigarettes are about to
increase in price again. Tariana Turia is with Shane
Taurima.
SHANE
Thank you, Paul, and thank you, Minister for your time. Tena
koe.
TARIANA TURIA Maori Party co-leader
Tena koe.
SHANE
You want a smoke-free New Zealand by 2025. Does that mean a
complete ban on tobacco?
TARIANA
Well, ideally, it would mean that we wouldnt have cigarette smoking
in New Zealand, and I guess that thats an aspirational goal.
We should always be aspirational. We should always believe
that anythings possible.
SHANE
So we currently have about 650,000 smokers. Does that mean
zero smokers by 2025?
TARIANA
Well, like I said, you know, the hope is that people wont be
smoking cigarettes in 2025. The aim, really, is to stop the
uptake, and so weve targeted most of our policies in that
direction, and I believe that its beginning to work. Weve
seen the biggest drop in the numbers of young people taking up
cigarette smoking in the last three years.
SHANE
Would you make it illegal?
TARIANA
Well, I mean, in the end, thats for the government to decide, but
my view is that cigarettes would never have been allowed to come
into this country had we known at the point that we began allowing
them in that so many people would be affected and, in fact, that
they would be dying from this substance.
SHANE
Dr George Thompson, who was the lead author of a tobacco report
back in February, he said and I quote, Incremental efforts arent
working quickly to achieve the 2025 smoke-free target. He
also said the government needs to set a clear end date for
commercial tobacco sales. Are you working towards that?
TARIANA
Well, thats my goal. I mean, Ive come in to this position
knowing that its our families Maori families who are the most
likely to be affected by this 13 people dying a day, 5000 people
dying a year. I only have to go to my urupa at home to look
at my cousins, who have all died before they were 55. So,
yes, Im really diligent about trying to address this issue and
getting buy-in from my Cabinet colleagues. And Im pleased to
say that we have moved some way along the track in terms of taxing,
in terms of removing displays and now in looking at plain
packaging.
SHANE
So lets just be clear you want it outlawed?
TARIANA
I do. If Im being really honest, I dont think that having a
substance that kills people should be allowed to be sold. I
mean, weve already had a child, for instance, die from sniffing a
substance which will be investigated. Theyll look at the
substance, and theyll take it off the shelf. Well, you know,
5000 people dying a year, and we dont want to take this substance
off the shelf. I have to ask why. Why not?
SHANE
Why not?
TARIANA
Well, I think its because the tobacco companies you know, this is
huge profit-making international companies, and, you know, theyve
got they know that their profit is going to be affected. Its
really clear they threaten. They take governments to court,
as we can see happening in Australia. And it is because their
profit to them is more important than the lives of people. We
have to focus, here in New Zealand, on public health and the lives
of people.
SHANE
You mention that the tobacco companies are in court in Australia
over plain packaging because they say the law infringes their
intellectual-property rights by banning the use and brand of
trademarks. They argue that removing logos and company
colours will lead to a drastic cut in profits, as you say, and see
fake products come into the market. They also say that its
unconstitutional for the government to remove trademarks from
packaging without compensation. Do you accept that?
TARIANA
No, I dont. I think that what weve got is a free-trade
agreement and soon to have a trans-Tasman agreement, which we dont
know whats in that. But we do know that we have a right to
determine what the laws are in our own countries, and its not for
tobacco companies to be determining the laws of New Zealand and
certainly not in Australia either.
SHANE
So when Philip Morris says, as an example, and I quote, Plain
packaging will not reduce smoking rates, will trigger a variety of
adverse consequences and violates numerous international laws and
trade treaties, End of quote. Are you ready for a
lawsuit?
TARIANA
Well, what we are ready for is to have the debate. I mean,
here they are saying that it wont lower smoking uptake or smoking
and yet here they are at the other end of the scale saying it will
affect their profits. You cant have it both ways.
Either they agree that this is a way forward for us in New Zealand,
the government, and dont take any notice, frankly, of what the
tobacco companies are saying. I certainly dont.
SHANE
Could the Australian legal case delay or even undermine what youre
trying to achieve here?
TARIANA
Well, I hope not. I think Australia has been relatively
confident that constitutionally the tobacco companies cant
interfere in what it is that theyre attempting to do, so, I mean,
it remains to be seen. You know, its not for me to determine
what will happen in Australia. I think were on a pathway here
in New Zealand and we have to keep to that path.
SHANE
So are you sitting back and waiting to see what happens with that
case?
TARIANA
Well, we arent, because weve already gone out for public
consultation on the tobacco packaging, so itll depend, really, on
what happens out of that. But I feel very confident
SHANE
So it could affect your plans?
TARIANA
Well, it remains to be seen. You know, Im not sure whether it
will affect our plans, because we dont have a constitution the same
as Australia does, our free-trade agreement doesnt inhibit us from
doing plain packaging, and the trans-Tasman agreement were looking
at right now I am almost certain that that wont impact either.
SHANE
Let me put it to you that it will only work if you think its the
packaging that actually gets people smoking, and isnt it the image
of the rebellion around smoking and whats actually the addictive
stuff in it that actually gets people hooked into smoking? So
maybe youre targeting well, maybe youve got the wrong target?
TARIANA
Yeah, well, I dont agree with that, because I think it takes a
whole suite of things. We know how addictive this substance
is, and so we know that we need to attack it on every platform that
we can. So weve gone were looking at plain packaging, weve
had the displays removed, weve got Quitline, weve got Maori
providers and Pacific providers right throughout the country
working with their families, so we know that its going to take a
whole range of actions for us to actually beat this scourge.
SHANE
And youve also had three 10% increases in excise tax since
2010. Can we expect the same this time around in this years
Budget?
TARIANA
Look, Ill be very honest with you. I advocate that taxes
should rise on tobacco because we know that thats been the one
issue that has really worked. Theres been a huge drop in
young peoples uptake. Thats where were targeting this.
SHANE
So can we expect another three 10% increases in the excise tax this
time around?
TARIANA
Well, that remains to be seen in the Budget, but certainly that has
been the Maori Partys advocacy for that.
SHANE
Is there an end to the increases? Could we, for example,
eventually see a packet of cigarettes costing a hundred bucks?
TARIANA
Well, I think we have to do whatever it takes. I mean, thats
what the modelling thats being carried out by the Ministry of
Health is showing that we could be on a pathway to $100 a
packet. I know that the Prime Minister doesnt think that
thats the way forward. Ideally, as I said, it takes the whole
suite working together to try and attempt to ameliorate
smoking.
SHANE
Given your very tough stance on tobacco, what about alcohol?
Did the Governments reforms go far enough, in your opinion?
TARIANA
No, they dont, and I think that we need to be looking at
alcohol. Its not one of my portfolios, but our party is
totally opposed to anything that is a social hazard. So if
youre talking about alcohol, if youre talking about gambling, we
know that we need to work very hard, because again youre talking
addictions, youre talking about these particular substances or
behaviour that impact on our people and our families, and we have
to be forever alert to be prepared to address
SHANE
So if they dont go far enough, will you be supporting the bill?
TARIANA
No, I dont think that we will be supporting the legislation.
Were really clear that if the changes dont go enough to address the
areas that we think are significant, then we wont be supporting
it. I mean, on one hand, we raised the age back I cant
remember what year it was and now we want to lower the age for
those who are able to buy. Personally, I dont think thats
going to make the difference that we need. We need, again, to
raise taxes on alcohol. We need to ensure that the alcopops
that have been brought in, that are encouraging young people to
drink, making it cheaper for them to drink we need to look at all
of that.
SHANE
So you wont be supporting the legislation?
TARIANA
No, we wont.
SHANE
Gambling because you mentioned gambling as well as being another
social hazard and a big policy area for the Maori Party as
well. When we look at, for example, the deal that the
Government struck with Sky City more pokie machines for a
convention centre what do you think of that? Do you support
that?
TARIANA
No. No, we dont. In fact, Te Ururoa Flavell has had a
piece of legislation thats just been a bill thats been drawn from
the bill box, and well be attempting to get buy-in from other
political parties around it. One of the difficulties around
the whole gambling issue is most of those machines are in poor
communities. Who benefits from them? Certainly not
those communities. You dont see the money going back and
being invested into those communities at all. It gets
invested mainly in sports clubs and others.
SHANE
So can we just go back to your reasons for not supporting the Sky
City deal? Can you tell us why youre not supportive?
TARIANA
Well, were not going to support the growing gambling. No way
will we support a growth in gambling, a growth in machines at
all. Even though the Governments saying that theres a sinking
lid on the machines, the fact is that the more you provide
opportunity, the more people will gamble.
SHANE
Because Steven Joyce has assured you that the economic benefit will
outweigh any negative impacts of the deal.
TARIANA
Oh, well, were always being sold that notion about a lot of social
hazards that there is economic benefit. I accept that there
may be economic benefit, but we believe that the social hazards
outweigh that.
SHANE
So you dont accept his assurance?
TARIANA
Well, we dont accept, given our experience of these issues, that
its going to make a difference in our poor communities.
SHANE
You spoke about the private members bill that Te Ururoa Flavell has
put forward. Youre seeking to give more power to local
communities to determine where the pokie machines should be and how
the proceeds should be distributed.
TARIANA
Yes.
SHANE
Compared to your stance on tobacco and alcohol, it seems quite
liberal.
TARIANA
Yes.
SHANE
Why not just call for a moratorium, for example, on new
machines?
TARIANA
Well, I guess, ideally that would be the pathway forward, and what
were trying to do...
SHANE
Do you support that?
TARIANA
Do I support...?
SHANE
For example, a freeze on new pokie machines.
TARIANA
Oh, I dont think we should be having more pokie machines anywhere
in New Zealand. I mean, if we think about the huge harm I
know families who have lost everything. They have lost their
homes; they have lost their educational money that theyve set aside
for themselves through gambling because it is such a quick
result. You know, you go to a casino, you win a lot of money
maybe the first time you go, the excitement when youre poor that
means that you might be able to pay all of your bills in that one
event. But what we dont realise is that over a period of
time, we lose all our money.
SHANE
So when were talking about smoking, alcohol and were talking about
gambling, what about free choice? What about the persons
right to be able to have a cigarette, have a drink, go and have a
flutter?
TARIANA
And itd be really great if thats all that was happening. But
the fact is that we know that these three areas that they are all
extremely addictive. And so once you become engaged in them
poorer people particularly are more likely to get engaged in a way
that is negative. And all were doing is trying to protect our
people.
SHANE
And a good place to leave it. Tariana Turia, thank you very much
for your time this morning.
TARIANA
Kia ora.