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Act leader and former Auckland Mayor John Banks - Source: Q and A -
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PAUL HOLMES
This past week we learnt there's a further billion-dollar hole in
the Government's finances, and both Prime Minister John Key and
Finance Minister Bill English are talking a near-zero budget next
month with no new spending. Labour's David Parker and the ACT
leader John Banks not surprisingly have quite different solutions,
so we're with them both this morning. A one-billion dollar hole. Mr
Parker, you say you believe the Government has failed. In your
statement, you said, 'a zero budget is what you get when you fail.'
That's a bit unreasonable, isn't it?
DAVID PARKER - Labour's finance spokesperson
No. No, look, in hard times governments have to be frugal, but they
do have choices, and National's made the wrong choices, and that's
why they keep failing to meet even their own predictions.
PAUL
What choices were wrong?
DAVID
Well, take some spending choices that I would do differently.
They've spent $9 million on consultants for adjustments for...
PAUL
$9 million? We're talking a billion.
DAVID
They've spent $120 million on consultants and lawyers for the sale
of SOEs. That doesn't grow the economy. They're spending $2 billion
on a highway to Puhoi. That's nice to have, but it shouldn't be a
priority at the moment. We would have different priorities.
PAUL
See, I was mentioning that to the panel. When I looked at all the
businesses going where kids are trying to apply for jobs and get
jobs, they're all supermarkets. Well, that's real productive for an
economy, isn't it? The government has failed. Balancing the books
is one thing, Mr Banks, but actually turning the economy around is
something else, isn't it?
JOHN BANKS, ACT Leader
Well, there's nothing wrong with being a supermarket checkout
operator in Manurewa.
PAUL
I'm not knocking the people who work in those businesses, but as
businesses...
JOHN
But let me tell you the problem. The problem is for the 19-year-old
supermarket operator in Manurewa, he is subsidising the free
student loan for the merchant banker New Zealand graduate working
in London and earning 100,000 pounds a year. That's called
middle-class welfare. There's far too much middle-class welfare.
We've got to cut our cloth. The Government this week announced that
they're going to have a spending cap. Bill English is making a
very good fist of bringing this budget together. These are tough
economic times and we need to have some tough decisions taken like
less Government expenditure, getting Government out of our pockets
and off our backs.
PAUL
Let's stay on the deficit. Middle-class welfare - what do you mean
by that?
JOHN
Well, middle-class welfare, I mean free interest loans for
students.
PAUL
I get you on that. But cheap going to the doctor, cheap
prescriptions, that kind of thing?
JOHN
Well, why should I go to the doctor and have a subsidised
prescription and a subsidised visit? Why should I as a New
Zealander...
PAUL
Because for damn years you've worked hard and paid your taxes.
JOHN
But we simply can't afford it. Why don't they say to someone like
me at 65, instead of taking a national superannuation that I don't
take because at 65 you can get it, why don't they say, 'we'll give
it to you at 70 and you can get a little bit more'? It's crazy
stuff.
DAVID
The deficit is bigger because they economy's not growing because
the Government's not taking...
PAUL
Well, also, David, it's not growing because the lower overseas
prices, you know, the markets have softened here, revenues are
down...
DAVID
We've actually had record terms of trade for the last three years,
and we're not growing- Look, governments do have choices. We've
said that New Zealand should be investing in research and
development, in education, in science, in more savings so as to
have more exports.
PAUL
I know you have said that, but that doesn't help a billion-dollar
deficit which is right down the road and around the corner.
DAVID
No, no, look, that deficit will be overcome within three years
whether we're there or they're there. Last year it was $13 billion;
this year it'll be about $9 billion; the following year it'll be
about $5 billion and then it'll be gone.
PAUL
But you reckon yourself that - didn't you say to my producer the
other day that a monkey could get those books balanced by 2014?
DAVID
The government's own projection...
PAUL
If you would have done that as well, then you'd have no extra
spending either, would you?
DAVID
We would prioritise our spending. Look, we're not saying spend more
and borrow more. We're saying the priorities are wrong. Selling our
assets, selling land, that's central to the Government's agenda. We
say we should be investing in science, research and developments,
savings, more exports. That's the way to grow.
PAUL
Mr Parker, I would ask you to sit there for a little while,
because, Mr Banks, other matters have reared their head over the
last couple of days, and David Shearer, the Labour leader, is
demanding of the Prime Minister that he stand you down over the Kim
Dotcom donation affair. Should he, or shouldn't you stand yourself
down?
JOHN
This is the problem - it's a sideshow; it's mostly a media beat-up,
and much of it is humbug.
PAUL
No, dammit, it's about the law, Mr Banks.
JOHN
Yes, well, have a look at the 2001 act and you'll see what a
professor of law said this morning in the Sunday Herald. Yesterday
the media had me going to jail. Today they're saying I'm likely to
be in the clear. That is the problem. Last week I was the sideshow.
Next week Mr Shearer will be the sideshow because Mr Shearer's
going to be rolled in the next couple of weeks. That's the
problem.
PAUL
Can I just have a look at some of what's emerged? You were up at
Kim Dotcom's, and did you know he was giving you the money? Did you
know he was writing out a cheque or getting his man to write a
cheque?
JOHN
Look, we're here to talk about investment, growth and jobs...
PAUL
Well, I'm sorry, Mr Banks, this has taken precedence.
JOHN
Let me answer your question. All this has been narrated mainly on
the front page of the local newspaper here and across the
media...
PAUL
Well, I'm giving you the chance to debate it with us here, so
answer the question. Were you there when the cheques came out? Did
you know he was giving you the money?
JOHN
I don't...
PAUL
Did he mention $50,000?
JOHN
Why don't you...
PAUL
Were you there when they started writing a cheque?
JOHN
(LAUGHS)
PAUL
Did you ask for it to be two cheques because you could make it
anonymous? And if you were there and you declared that donation
anonymous, you're dead meat, aren't you, because that was
illegal.
JOHN
I think you think I came up the river on a cabbage boat. I can tell
you that when I signed my declaration for the mayoralty I signed it
in good faith in the knowledge as a Justice of the Peace as true
and correct. I have nothing to fear and nothing to hide and I
welcome the inquiry and everything will come out in the wash, Mr
Holmes. I'm more invested in the real issues of investment growth
and jobs and providing working opportunities for 80,000 of our kids
that are out of school and out of luck.
PAUL
But are you saying - because it is illegal, you know, don't you,
that if you know where a donation came from, to claim it was
anonymous. So is what Mr Dotcom is saying about - your eyes perked
up, your eyes went big at the mention of 50 grand. And so the fella
gets the chequebook out and you're sitting there and he writes a
cheque. I mean, are you saying that he's lying? Because that's what
he's saying.
JOHN
I don't know why you're going on about this. I have nothing to
hide.
PAUL
Is he lying?
JOHN
It's a media beat-up. Yesterday I was going to jail. Today I'm
going to be cleared. I mean, that's what the media get up to, and
you're beating it up again. Look, we've got an inquiry...
PAUL
Mr Banks.
JOHN
I'm very happy to have the inquiry. (CHUCKLES)
PAUL
Did you know Kim Dotcom had written you two cheques for 50 grand,
and did you therefore put them in your return as two lots of 25,
anonymous? Yes or no?
JOHN
I signed my return honestly. I have nothing to hide and nothing to
fear and it will all come...
PAUL
Did you know Mr Dotcom was throwing 50 grand at you?
JOHN
...out in the wash. And I want to talk this morning about our
competition with Australia for investment and jobs and getting the
government off our backs and out of our pockets and providing an
economic environment where we can create wealth for our
country.
PAUL
Let me go to Mr Parker and see if he's got an opinion on...
JOHN
Ask him about the leadership of the Labour Party being rolled this
week. That'll be the sideshow. (LAUGHS)
PAUL
(LAUGHS) I'm going to. On the Kim Dotcom, Shearer says stand down.
What do you think?
DAVID
Yeah, he should stand down. Look, this is serious. The police
should look at it. It's another sideshow from what the Government
should be focusing on. I do agree with John Banks on that, but
unfortunately for him, he's centre stage now and he should be
standing aside so that he's not the sideshow and the Government can
get on with managing the economy.
PAUL
What about, though, I mean, you mention the leadership. His
eminence Christopher Trotter saying he made the wrong decision when
he backed Kim - Not Kim Dotcom, no, David Shearer. (LAUGHS) Is
there real faith - can you speak honestly? Is there faith in David
Shearer's leadership?
DAVID
Yes, there is. You know, David Shearer's a courageous man. He's a
good leader. And I believe - and I actually think a lot of New
Zealanders know that we're lucky to have him in politics. There is
no leadership coup. There has been no leadership coup rumours,
other than in blogs, and it suits our political opponents to rark
them up.
JOHN
But Holmesy...
PAUL
You must have heard the talk - there's a feeling that the man's got
no mongrel.
DAVID
I disagree. David Shearer comes from a background where he's been
dealing with mongrels all his life, and he puts them down when he
has to. You know, you don't have to be a pitbull terrier to be the
prime minister. You do have to be strong and courageous.
PAUL
And you don't have to wear the guns on the outside.
JOHN
What you didn't say is that Mr Trotter, one of the great apologists
for the left in this country, he said, quote, the David Shearer
leadership is an - quote - unfortunate experiment. The sideshow
won't be me. The sideshow next week will be this joker and his
mates rolling David Shearer.
PAUL
Now, look, I'll give you a quick word on the economy. That
one-billion dollar hole is most uncomfortable. What can we do about
it?
JOHN
Start saving some money. Getting rid of middle-class welfare. Look,
Bill English is making a good fist of bringing the budget together
at the crossroads. We've gotta take some tough decisions around
spending. This outfit over here wants to spend more, want to borrow
more, want to tax more and want to mortgage our grandchildren to
the hock.
PAUL
He's dead right. I mean, Interest-free student loans are a
scandal.
DAVID
I don't take fiscal advice from John Banks...
PAUL
You should because he gets money from... (LAUGHS)
DAVID
(LAUGHS) Well, he might get money from Kim Dotcom, but when he was
mayor, he tripled council debt in his last three years, so I don't
take - we need to grow the economy. The Government's focussed on
asset sales. That doesn't grow the economy. Changing who owns what
already exists does not grow the output of economy. We need to
invest in research and development, science and education. We need
to get people going. And deeper savings.
PAUL
Thank you. We have to leave it there. And I can't believe you can't
remember whether you went in a helicopter or not.
DAVID
I don't believe that either.
PAUL
That's good. That's my opinion.
JOHN
You've been in a helicopter with me. I taught you to fly it.
PAUL
Yes, you did.