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Pope Shenouda III, the Coptic Orthodox Pope of Egypt, takes part in an Orthodox Christmas midnight mass at the main cathedral of a church in Cairo - Source: Reuters
Guyon Espiner interviews Anjum Rahman and Graham Redding
GUYON Joining me are Anjum Rahman&
ANJUM RAHMAN - Islamic Women's Council
Hello.
GUYON How are you?
MS RAHMAN Good, thank you.
GUYON Thanks very much for coming in. Anjum Rahman is
feminist, a spokesman for the Islamic Women's Council. We've also
got the Rt Rev Dr Graham Redding with us. Thanks for coming in. He
is a principal of the Knox Theological College in Dunedin and a
former moderator of the Presbyterian Church of Aotearoa New
Zealand. Can I start with you, Graham Redding? You, from your
writings, have said that the Muslim faith - Islam - is more prone
to extremism than Christianity for a variety of reasons,
including& What you say is that Jesus rejected the path of
violence; Mohammed regarded violence as a legitimate tool. Do you
really believe that Muslim and Islam is more prone to extremism
than Christianity?
RT REV DR GRAHAM REDDING - Presbyterian Minister
I think religious violence afflicts all religions, and I
think all religions look to justify it and have done it over the
course of history. I think it is more difficult for Christians to
justify it on the grounds of the way their founding figure lived
and what he taught. Easter, which we celebrate today and Good
Friday is about the life of Jesus, who refused to take up the
sword, who, as he died on the cross, prayed, 'Father, forgive them
for they know not what they do.'
GUYON But more easy for Muslims to justify it in their faith,
you believe?
RT REV DR REDDING Well, that would be for Mrs Rahman to talk
about, but it seems to me, as I look at the life of Mohammed, he
was also a military leader as well as a religious figure, and
so I think there is a difference in terms of the founding
figures.
GUYON Well, Anjum Rahman, how do you respond to that? Is that
true? Is Islam more prone to extremism?
MS RAHMAN I don't think it's more prone to extremism, but I
think there's a vast difference between the ministry of Jesus and
the life that Mohammed led. For example, it was a much longer
period of prophethood, as it were, and when& You have to
understand, for the first 13 to 14 years of his prophethood, there
was no violence, and the permission to fight came only after
extreme torture, injustice and that community was under attack, and
the permission was given to fight against those who fight against
you - so a defensive war.
GUYON Some see, though, the absolute sacredness of the Koran
leading to some fairly extreme outcomes - if it's burned or
desecrated in some way, we get extreme reactions. I mean, is that
justified?
MS RAHMAN Oh, I don't believe it's justified to kill people. I
mean, I condemn totally the killing of UN staff in response to
that, but you have to understand that this is happening in a wider
context. I mean, there was the Rolling Stone article showing how
American soldiers were actively murdering civilians, photographing
them, sending the photographs around. They're online, the
photographs, if you wanted to see them. There's the context of that
war, and so I think that, you know, innocent wedding parties being
attacked and so on, and the anger, while nominally against the
Koran-burning, is actually a lot deeper than that.
GUYON So do you see both sides as equally bad in this
conflict?
MS RAHMAN No. I don't see people as bad or good. I think
people are living in contexts and reacting to what is happening to
them. It's like one of your earlier speakers has said - each event
escalates another event, and then it leads to a downwards spiral,
and what we need is a way to break that.
GUYON Graham Redding, two of the major proponents of both the
Iraq and the Afghanistan wars were Tony Blair and George Bush, both
of whom used their Christian faith as guidance and& as guidance
for going into the war. Are you happy for the Christian religion to
be used in that way? Are you comfortable with that?
RT REV DR REDDING No, and I think Glyn made a valid point
earlier - within the Christian tradition, there have been two
streams. One is the non-violent pacifist stream, and for the first
300 years of the church's existence, when Christianity was a
minority religious movement within the Roman empire, that was the
predominant stance. Then when the Roman emperor Constantine adopted
Christianity as the state religion, you had this fusion, suddenly,
of politics and religion, and then that lead through the Middle
Ages and the legitimatision of violence by the religion of the day,
and I think Christianity has existed in an uneasy tension between
those streams ever since, and there'd be many Christians that I
think would want to criticise the way even modern violence is
legitimated by appeal to God and Christ.
GUYON Because it seems ironic in a way to say that Islam is
more prone to violence, yet we have two major wars propagated by
Christian leaders.
RT REV DR REDDING Absolutely. The hypocrisy is there across
all religions, and I think in the piece that you referred to
earlier I make that very clear that Christianity cannot claim the
higher moral ground. We are equally guilty. But I think in terms of
dealing with that contradiction, there is something in the teaching
and the way of Christ that we have to take utterly serious and can
still ask questions of the way we act today.
GUYON I wonder whether it's religion itself which is part of
the problem in a place like the Middle East. You've got someone
like Christopher Hitchens, who writes on this issue a lot, saying
that basically everyone knows the answers to the problems in the
Middle East - a two-state solution between Israel and Palestine.
But he says that will never get there because 'there'll be misery,
shame, tyranny and people will kill each other's children for
ancient books, caves and relics'.
MS RAHMAN I think that's complete nonsense. I mean, the whole
issue in the Middle East is political, and it's about resources,
and it's nothing to do with religion. If you look at the uprisings
that are happening now, they're not religious uprisings. Why are
people in the streets rioting and being killed in Syria, Libya,
Egypt and so on? For social justice issues. What has caused it?
It's prosperity, a fair wage, being able to just live with dignity.
Those are the issues, and they're not religious issues.
GUYON Would you extend that to Iraq and Afghanistan -
resources rather than religion?
MS RAHMAN Absolutely. If you look at Afghanistan, just very
soon after America went into Afghanistan, the UN subsidy that was
provided to the poppy growers of Afghanistan, which had almost
eradicated the production of opium, was cut. To this day, that
subsidy has not been reinstated. Why has that not happened? Now
Afghanistan is producing much more than they had prior to the
Taliban and prior to the subsidy coming into place.
GUYON Graham Redding, do you agree with that - that this&?
Or do you see this as a religious war? Because many do.
RT REV DR REDDING I think in any situation where you've got a
fusion of political interests and religious history and culture, it
is a volatile mix. And I think religion can be both a force for
good and reconciliation, and there are many cases in history where
that has been the case. But equally it can be subverted to other
vested interests and ulterior motives, and we see that happening
all the time, and it's very difficult at times to delineate the
two.
GUYON Can we talk more broadly - I mean, even in countries
where there are not conflicts and wars, we have tension between
Muslim faith and the West. You look at France - they've just banned
the burqa, essentially, in public. Some see that as a liberating
move; others say that it is an outrageous move to deny people the
right to actually practise their faith. How do you view that
move?
MS RAHMAN Again, look at it in the political context, look at
what Sarkozy has been facing - he has some of the lowest popularity
ratings, the measures that he's brought in against the union,
against their working week, against conditions, and this is a way -
and the research has shown, Human Rights Watch has shown research
that when you take up communal conflict, it builds, people identify
with you, and it's&
GUYON So this is populism, that's what you're saying?
MS RAHMAN This is absolutely a political tool to build
popularity and very little to do with religion, because when you
look at their other actions, they don't support any policy or moves
to improve the lives of women generally within their country.
GUYON How do you feel about this issue, Graham Redding?
Because, I mean, some people say, 'Well, OK, we'll tolerate that.'
But then they move to an issue like female circumcision and say,
'Well, this is going too far for the sort of practices that we have
in this country.' I mean, do you think that we practise religious
tolerance in New Zealand?
RT REV DR REDDING We do, but I think within that framework of
religious tolerance, there is also a lot of misunderstanding. There
is still a fear of the other, and I think Islam and a lot of
minority religious groups within the country are often still
stigmatised by that. But we are a much more tolerant country than
many overseas, and I think there's a lot to give thanks for in that
regard.
MS RAHMAN Can I just take you up on the female circumcision,
because that issue, while identified with Islam, is actually
practised also by Christians within that region. So again, when you
talk about misinformation, this is something that gets lumped in
together as if it's an Islamic practice, when actually, no, it's
not.
GUYON Let's take this right back to New Zealand. The Human
Rights Commission believes that New Zealand is a secular country
and that religion is a private matter. Is that how you see
it?
RT REV DR REDDING Not entirely. We're secular in terms of our
framework, but religion is part of our history - the
Judeo-Christian tradition. A lot of, for example, the public
holidays, a lot of the rituals. I think what happened after the
Christchurch quake and the memorial service - we still turn to the
church often for those public ceremonies, which I think are
becoming more inclusive as time goes on. And I think if you look at
the profile of people like Salvation Army working on the ground,
the New Zealand Council of Christian Social Services, the food
banks - all those things at ground level. Religion has a very
significant part to play in this secular society.
GUYON And do you and do Muslims feel free to practise their
faith in New Zealand, or do you see prejudice and do you see
suspicion?
MS RAHMAN Again, it's a context thing. There is a whole lot of
freedom here, and I think& I would echo what he says. We feel
really grateful that we can go about building our mosques and
conducting our prayers. I think it's more the day-to-day
interactions. Often if you're out shopping or walking down the
street&
GUYON Why? What do people say? What do you mean?
MS RAHMAN Mm, not polite conversation.
GUYON Really?
MS RAHMAN Yes, people will yell out things.
GUYON To you directly?
MS RAHMAN Yeah, and&
GUYON Because of the way you look?
MS RAHMAN Yes, yes. And I think it's very much tied to
international events, so when something happens overseas, suddenly
the focus comes onto the Muslim community, and we tend to bear the
brunt of that. And it does surface in discrimination in the
workplace, in the ability to get jobs, even things like internships
and so on being turned down. People will look at the name and turn
you away.
GUYON So that happens?
MS RAHMAN That does happen.
GUYON So Muslim people find it harder to get work, to even get
about their ordinary business in New Zealand?
MS RAHMAN I think that there are a lot of Muslims that are
contributing. I think that one of the issues is that a lot of them
that come over are from a refugee background, and so there is a
whole mixture of issues. But then, because they're refugees,
they're likely to need a lot more support from the state, and it
leads into this narrative of people who are unproductive and people
who are not contributing, whereas people that are not in a refugee
situation are doing their best. You know, when they can't get a
job, they're going into business - you know, you see the doctors
driving taxis or whatever. They've come here for a better life, and
they do whatever it takes and whatever they can to try and progress
that so they have a good live for themselves and their
families.
GUYON Graham Redding, Christianity is still the major
religion. I think some people might be surprised to see that 52% of
us, nearly, believe& claimed to be Christian in the last
census. But that's massively dropped away, hasn't it?
RT REV DR REDDING Yes, it has.
GUYON It's dropped from, what, 90% to 50%-odd in the last 50
years. I mean, on those numbers, it's a dying religion in New
Zealand.
RT REV DR REDDING Well, what you're seeing is a shift in
demographic, and I think throughout the Western world, Christianity
is on the decline, so that is a reality. Having said that, it is
still a significant influence, and will continue to be so for many
people, and what you're seeing is a demographic shift from some of
the more traditional churches to some of the more Pentecostal and
independent churches.
GUYON That's where the growth is, isn't it? It's with the
younger& and, actually, with the more sort of fundamentalists,
isn't it?
RT REV DR REDDING Well, you've got to be careful you don't
overgeneralise there, because in actual fact a lot of the growth is
coming from ethnic congregations and churches that are springing up
reflecting immigration from Asia, from Pacific Islands, but also a
lot of the more traditional churches are undergoing significant
renewal where people favour more contemplative, traditional style.
So, yes, there are significant pockets of growth in the
independent-church movement, but I think you've got to be careful
you don't therefore write off all the rest of the Christian church
and Christianity in general.
GUYON And Christianity is still the religion that seems to be
fair game for having a crack at. I mean, New Zealanders will see,
driving around, the billboards. Hell Pizza's got one at the moment
that says, 'For a limited time only. A bit like Jesus.' I mean, do
you feel that you guys are the ones who are fair game and you're
actually allowed to criticise, make jokes about Christianity
without being labelled politically incorrect?
RT REV DR REDDING I think there is an aspect of that. I think
familiarity breeds contempt to a certain extent, and it's not only
the Hell Pizzas thing, but even, for example, the way sin is
trivialised - you know, the whole 'death by chocolate' and indulge,
and a bit of a marketing thing is made of that. So I think on the
one hand you've got the taking Christianity for granted; on the
other hand the fear of the other. So I think Muslim communities and
other minority religious groups were often lumped into the same
basket.
GUYON Can I ask this question - with no offence - but do
Muslims need more of a sense of humour about when they get
criticised? Because it seems if you get the cartoons or whenever
the Muslim or Islam faith is criticised, the reaction seems to be
pretty strong. Do you need to lighten up a bit?
MS RAHMAN I think, again, look at the context of what these
things are happening in, and, you know, the particular contexts of
wars happening, of injustice, social injustice and so on&
GUYON It just simply isn't funny?
MS RAHMAN Yeah, it doesn't become funny, but also, more than
that, I think Muslims do laugh at themselves, but&
GUYON We don't see that a lot.
MS RAHMAN No, well, we don't see a lot of anything other than
what Osama bin Laden's saying or what the current war is or people
dying. I mean, we don't. But just about three years ago, we had a
group come through called Allah Made Me Funny, and they were a
comic duo. Go on the internet, You Tube - there's heaps of Muslim
comedians and&
GUYON I'll have a look out for it.
MS RAHMAN They do wonderful stuff.
GUYON Thanks very much for joining us for that debate. Really
appreciate your time.
MS RAHMAN Thank you.
