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Ron Mark - Source: Q+A -
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Q+A's panel this week Paul Holmes, Therese Arseneau, former NZ First MP Ron Mark & former Prime Minister, Mike Moore.
PAUL So what does our panel make of the some of
the things the Australian Foreign Minister Stephen Smith was
saying, Mike Moore and Ron Mark. You'd have to say
politically he's a master at saying very little, is Mr Smith.
MIKE He did that very well.
PAUL He did that very well didnt he?
MIKE Well look Australia is a serious country, here's a country when the Tsunami hit Indonesia put a billion dollars up, more than Japan, more than US, military expenditure now is equal to the Philippines, Indonesia, Singapore and Malaysia put together. They believe they live in a dangerous neighbourhood, and we do, and here's the New Zealand interview and the New Zealand public saying why should you spend this money because deep down we think the Australians stand between us and any mischief, and why do we have these idealistic views on foreign policy, which are good and I have them, because deep down we think there's no cost to being wrong, and there is a cost to being wrong, and the question if of China.
PAUL Let's get on to China shortly. Let me ask you about the IMF, he indicated that Fiji, he understood that Fiji may already have applied to the IMF or institutional financial institutions for some assistance. Now here's what he said.
'Guyon Espiner: So is the economy close to tipping over is that what you're saying? Stephen Smith: Well I think it's in a very precarious situation, I think it's in a very precarious situation. Guyon: And they will need to call on the likes of the IMF etc is that what you're saying? Stephen: Well my understanding is that some of those discussions have already occurred, conversations between Fiji and the international financial institutions as they should.'
PAUL Now my understanding was really what Australia and New Zealand are doing is more or less bringing some economic pressure and other pressures on Fiji to bring the regime to its senses, to get the restoration of democracy. If Fiji go round the back of us to the IMF, if the IMF helped them out that rather defeats our purpose doesnt it?
RON Funny that. I think New Zealand and Australia quite clearly recognise that the last thing they want to be doing is severely impacting upon the ordinary people of Fiji and it's a very difficult line to be walking when you're trying to get the regime to accept change and to adjust, but at the same time not wishing to severely harm the livelihoods of the ordinary Fijians.
PAUL Yeah but at the same time when you bring economic pressure, try and bring economic pressure to bring a regime to its senses, you are in fact trying to put economic pressure on the ordinary people arent you so they bring the pressure on the regime?
MIKE Is that possible though. It'll be the World Bank not the IMF. This represents a huge diplomatic failure by New Zealand and by Australia over several decades.
PAUL What does?
MIKE What's happened in Fiji. What is foreign policy about? Foreign policy is projecting and protecting your interests and promoting your values, and building up over many years those values and those interests. We have failed. Now having said that this is not going to be solved by beating our chest doing the Tarzan act and pretend you know we criticise the Americans or the Aussies for being belligerent and then we beat our chest and lecture and poke our fingers in the face of military people who dont particularly like that. This has to be worked through, you need a game changer, I know some people who are working on a game changer now, and this will not be resolved by hairy chested pp.
RON The other problem we have is that we've made a lot about using United Nations pressure by taking Fijian peacekeepers out of the UN forces, and we actually know that thats not possible. One of the greatest difficulties the United Nations has is getting credible defence forces from credible countries that arent corrupt, that dont go around raping the locals, that dont become part of the warlord problem themselves, to actually accept some of these very dangerous missions around the world that they're responsible for. So it's one thing for New Zealand and Australia to be saying we want the United Nations to drop Fiji from its list of preferred countries.
MIKE Was there three or four thousand Fijians in the British Army and doing a damn good job, in security forces all round the world.
PAUL Just go back to something you were saying, you know some people working on a game changer?
MIKE Yeah there has to be a game changer there and to allow people to move, keep their dignity and keep their faith.
PAUL But who is working on a game changer?
MIKE Oh anyhow, this is a different coup than others, this is the first time theyve had a go at the courts, the Council of Chiefs, and even got a military guy in the Central Bank. They are now putting military guys into all sorts of SOEs and sort of stuff, so it is very serious stuff, but here's New Zealand, we beat our chest about this coup but we're very silent about coups in Thailand and elsewhere and sometimes we act as though we're Texans of the specific and we pretend. A bit of dignity, self respect, and allowing people to move back to change the game a bit would be worthwhile.
PAUL Still, I mean they were talking, Guyon and Stephen Smith were speaking about whether the Fijian economy is in dire straits, whether it might be about to tip. If it tipped would that get rid of Bainimarama?
MIKE If the people were hurt enough and got up, but you know what happens if 50 Indian lawyers decide to march on the High Court copying what happened in India or Pakistan and then somebody starts beating the thing is explosive.
PAUL The military build up the hundred billion dollars military spend.
RON Over 20 years.
PAUL What do you make of it?
RON The biggest and I think Guyon said the biggest since World War II, excuse me the military build up in World War II happened over three years, not 20 years. There's a bit of hype there on that part, I think Australia recognises the problems it has in Indonesia, you know seconds offshore by jet aircraft, it sees issues there, it's been working for a decade now, more, with Indonesian military, with the Indonesian government to try and develop good relationships there, but Australia New Zealand has the luxury of knowing that we have the great continent of Australia between us and other hotspots of Asia.
MIKE And we're becoming Canadians they're becoming Texans.
RON We can say what we like but Australia is dealing with what they see is their threat.
PAUL Australia's a little bit worried about China he said we've asked the Chinese to be open about the intentions of their big growing military power, are they right to worry about China?
MIKE Of course you should think about these things, but you shouldnt demonise or idealise the problems faced, dont forget it's only 40 years ago that more than a hundred thousand Chinese were slaughtered in Indonesia, maybe half a million, now China wants a blue navy capacity to protect its people in the region, this becomes very complex. You spend in Defence and you spend in diplomacy with the hope that you'll never have to use it. The key thing here is India, it would be a very dangerous thing to have China I'm a China fan you know China as the dominant economic power in our region, a successful India, a successful Japan, a successful China, a successful Russia, a successful confident America, this is the balance that is useful in our pond.
PAUL So we need some balancing in our region I guess, is what you're saying. Now he also spoke about an ANZAC ready reaction force.
'Stephen Smith: We certainly share this ambition, there's a great historic connection between Australia and New Zealand in military terms through our ANZACS. We have the closer defence relations and we work very closely, but we would frankly like to see some modern day expression of the ANZAC iconic symbol.'
Which might well be a very seamless and quickly deployed ready reaction force, would it be hard to achieve?
RON Well I think we already do that, we do it on a case by case as needed basis, and I mean we go back to 1982 the deployment into Sinai, the setting up of the Maori National Force and Observers, that was an ANZAC Rotary wing, Australians and New Zealanders in the same unit, bought their own helicopters and went in and did the job. Some are still there doing other work, but look at East Timor, that was really an ANZAC involvement there, and I guess the key, and this is where the White Paper will be very important, is ensuring that what we equip ourselves with and the way in which we structure our Defence Forces is compatible with and helpful in the wider sense given what Australia has already ...
MIKE Of course we should do it, but we also ought to concede that while we'll nearly always have the same objectives, sometimes we can take different roads. For example I was able to launch the peace talks in Bougainville in PNG because I was a Kiwi, we give them 12 million a year, the Aussies give them 450 million a year and guess who they like. So there are ways in which we can do this if we're real smart, and stretch our dollar and stretch our diplomacy.
Add a Comment:
Post new commentYady said on 2011-11-28 @ 09:41 NZDT: Report abusive post
the country is full of complacent morons who love to complain but dont get of there arse to vote.... cant beleive where this country is headed, where just like the yanks, maybe worse because we think we are better than them....shame shame shame..... who can blame us for moving to aussie... the nz government is for the nz rich list, they dont care about the poor..... shame shame shame..... and the media should be held accountable.... they done this... i want to hear the tea tapes!
Yady said on 2011-11-28 @ 09:35 NZDT: Report abusive post
those who didn't vote should be ashamed of themselves.... this country is full of moaning couch potatoes..... just what national needed... shame shame shame....
cheekychick said on 2011-11-27 @ 10:03 NZDT: Report abusive post
Michelle Boag calling Winston names is disgusting and offensive Jan
cheekychick said on 2011-11-27 @ 09:28 NZDT: Report abusive post
Winston Peters is needed in Parliament to keep them honest. Janice
Cally said on 2011-11-27 @ 09:18 NZDT: Report abusive post
This is a very sad day for NZ, the blighter future is now here. When I went to vote yesterday, there was a man sitting behind the person I got my voting papers from, he had a National badge on and told me to vote for National and I also heard him tell someone else. National should not be proud of the dirty way he won this!