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Jacdina Ardern and Nikki Kaye - Source: Q+A -
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My next two guests were both born in 1980. Think big had been thunked before they were even born and they would have watched the springbok tour from their cots. Rogernomics was only just beginning as they were starting school and by the time they had finished, Jim Bolger had only just been rolled by Jenny Shipley.
John key is only the second prime minister they've known since they started voting.
They are millenials, generation next or generation Y.
Whatever you call them, they're from the generation known for
being tech savvy, optimistic and convinced that they are special
because at school they all got trophies just for taking part.
Labour's Jacinda Ardern, a list member and National's Nikki Kaye, who won Auckland Central for National. Welcome to you both.
PAUL So how do we find the politics, how do we find the Parliament near the end of your first year Jacinda?
JACINDA Well, Im enjoying the experience. I think its an enormous privilege to be in a place like that and I did have the opportunity to watch it from the inside for a period I spent a bit of time working in there, but doing the job is quite another thing altogether.
PAUL Right, well talk about that shortly. How do you find it&whats the most interesting thing youve found about the place (Nikki)?
NIKKI The people you meet and the stories they tell you and just the constituency work I think is pretty interesting helping people.
PAUL Normal people
NIKKI Yeah
PAUL - But what about being in Parliament itself?
NIKKI I think Wellington is a very different place to being in the community and the politics are always at times going to be pretty harrowing but Im really enjoying it, Im loving it.
PAUL Harrowing? In what way?
NIKKI Well I think sometimes what you see on TV in terms of the heckling and sometimes the long hours that you spend in Wellington can be tough sometimes, but I always enjoy getting back to the electorate and thats when you actually realise that youre making a difference for people.
PAUL Does the word harrowing resonate with you (Jacinda)?
JACINDA No, Im not sure thats a word that I would use. I mean there is a bit of theatre that goes on but I think the thing that brought me into that place still stays with me now and I do remember the very first time that I realised how special the job was. I was volunteering for Harry Duynhoven the MP in New Plymouth, and I was sitting in the office one day, I was about 18 or so, and an elderly man walked in and he was a grandfather looking after his grandchild, his grandchild had chronic asthma, he couldnt afford to buy him his school books or to care for him properly and I remember thinking two things I want to live in a place that supports a gentleman like that, and what an impressive and amazing job it is to be in a role where that man knew he could come to his local MP and help him.
PAUL To be able to do something about it&
JACINDA Absolutely. the harrowing I think is a sideshow to all that.
PAUL Do you get a thrill from that as well from helping?
NIKKI Absolutely. I mean I think my point is that the part I enjoy the most is being in the community and in my electorate actually with my constituents and Ive had some pretty hard cases as well, theyre people whove asked for drugs to be funded and you know that actually theyre not going to be funded.
PAUL Of course, you are both MPs but you are a constituent MP, youve got an electorate (Nikki) and youre a list MP (Jacinda). Does that give you more mana do you think with your senior colleagues that you do have a constituency?
NIKKI I think it was a pretty big win and there are often times when you can talk on an issue and you really know youve got the people behind you in your electorate I think there is something there in that.
PAUL As a list MP, and a young list MP at that, are you made to feel a bit lesser than say a constituency MP?
JACINDA No, not at all I think that part of is that because we accept that this system that uses list MPs, MMP, has made our parliament look more like New Zealand so list MPs are an important part of doing that. Now me personally, I would love to represent a constituency one day but I accept&
PAUL Hallmarked Auckland?
JACINDA Well, there are different options out there but..
PAUL Now then Nikki, the word is she wants Auckland!!
NIKKI Oh really&
JACINDA There are a few people&I mean its a great seat, there are a few people in Labour who are looking at it but its a decision for the members I think.
PAUL When I was reading up about you both, you both of you always seemed destined for parliament&
JACINDA Is that an insult? (laughs)
PAUL No! Is politics something you kind of got to be born to?
NIKKI I dont think so at all. I went overseas and I worked in the private sector and the public sector&but I think I did realise at that point even though Id worked in those different areas that my heart was here and thats why I wanted to come back and stand.
JACINDA I think that I always saw politics as a tool for change really, so I remember from a very young age - even back in the 80s growing up and spending a few years in Murupara that New Zealand wasnt the place I thought it needed to be and for me politics was the way to change that. So a bit of a means to an end really career choice I think personally.
PAUL Might you being generation millennials, might you have more in common with each other both in your 20s and in parliament than say with some of your senior colleagues? Interesting question&.
JACINDA Yeah it is, I think actually that all politicians have something in common as much as we probably dont admit it. I think that ultimately we all are there because we want to make New Zealand a better place we have very different ideas on how to do that and that probably unites Nikki and I , but in a lot of ways I think were probably still quite different.
NIKKI Well I actually think the next generation are a lot less ideological and I think I sit in that basket, I believe weve got to do what works and I think that there is a difference there.
JACINDA I think Id probably call myself a bit ideological&
PAUL Yeah but less perhaps than the older members of your parliament.
JACINDA And yet I still feel like I have a lot in common because were probably all still motivated by the same values and the same expectations of what we want to do with New Zealand.
PAUL Is your generation, people of your own age, more likely to have friends across the political divide than say the, are you likely to be less tribal?
NIKKI Well I think Ive built some good relationships on both sides of the house and I think it depends on the politician. I mean, thats the way that I work. I sort of see it as a bit of a sports match, you go in and you fight for what you believe in but then youre able to come off and treat each other with dignity and respect.
JACINDA I would agree with that, I think that that is important. I dont know if tribal is quite the right word , I do believe what I believe strongly, Ive got a really strong values set but I am willing to look at new ideas and new ways of doing things and if that involves the other side then it does. But I still think that there are certain things that I wont compromise on.
PAUL What are both your views on what Peter Gluckman was saying about how we must use science to examine policy. And hes talking not just about chemicals and mathematics and adding things up science, hes talking the social sciences as well. So if youre outcomes, if youre ignoring good social science and youre outcomes for social spending are not good, do you become do you throw ideology away?
JACINDA I think ideology always has to have an evidence base to support it. I dont believe in doing things that dont work simply for the sake of it being popular, it sounding good or it having an appeal. Id say if I was being a bit political Id throw boot camps into that category, personally&
NIKKI I wouldnt disagree with what Jacinda is saying, but what worries me is that I do think that you can get political phases if you like, and periods of people who are much more ideological and all theyre thinking about is the politics and not actually about the people and thats what worries me sometimes.
PAUL You have had kind of parallel lives though you were both born in the same year I know this, you seem to have had kind of parallel careers and lives. Born in the same year, both did uni, both started working for your parties very young, very young age Harry Duynhoven you tell me, both in London at the same time working in politics. When did you know you wanted to go into Parliament Nikki?
NIKKI I think when i worked there i had an idea that maybe one day, but it wasnt until I was sitting in London and I think I had really felt I had travelled the world and Id worked in the private sector and I just realised that my heart was back home and I really wanted to make a difference.
PAUL Knowing you were going into parliament quite young, as you probably did also, did you have to live blamelessly?
JACINDA I think that New Zealanders want human beings to be in parliament so I think you live, I certainly when I was young didnt live my life thinking one day I might be a politician and be scrutinised and I dont think the public would expect that either. I certainly didnt plan to be a politician, I never woke up one day and thought right, being an MP is what I want to do. I wanted to be a writer for a while I even wanted to be a clown at one stage dont draw the parallels between my current career!!
PAUL ..Like in the street? A street clown you mean?
JACINDA Like ones who go to schools I thought clowns made people happy&this was very young when I was about 12.
NIKKI For me, and I think Ive found this from the constituency work, youve got to be who you are and youve got to be human and look Ive made mistakes.
PAUL What are the mistakes? Tell me your one mistake, because you told me a story once about a fellow who came to you with a problem and you did the political spiel and told him what the law was blah blah blah and what did he say to you?
NIKKI He said to me, and you know I think its that whole thing about, theres a whole of politics stuff that happens in Wellington but when you get back to the community people want to know how decisions affect them&.
PAUL&What did he say to you&
NIKKI ..and he said to me you seem like a very nice lady but youve just told me a whole lot of stuff that just means nothing to me and & but we actually ended up going to the pub for a drink and, but what I realised was actually that people just want to know how the decisions are going to affect them, theyre not that interested in the politics.
PAUL Youve got to stay real, is that what youre saying?
NIKKI Thats exactly right.
PAUL Can you see how, I imagine parliament can be a very intoxicating place, a very heady kind of a
JACINDA do you mean that literally?
PAUL No, I mean a heady kind of place, a very seductive kind of a place and you that you could get cut off from ordinary people from ordinary ways of speaking&
JACINDA Not with my family! No. Not at all&
NIKKI Yeah..
PAUL You start talking outcomes rather than results.
JACINDA New Zealand is a really small place and I think thats the fantastic thing about our political system, politicians are accessible and rightly so and that does mean that you hear exactly what people think every time you leave Wellington. You hear peoples interpretations of what youre doing. It might be different when you become a Cabinet Minister, youre very busy, youre much more isolated I think. But in the roles that were doing now I certainly dont feel like Im going anywhere but safe firm ground.
PAUL Quick final comment?
NIKKI My friends and my family theyll always ping me back to earth if I ever step out of line!
PAUL Jacinda Ardern, thank you very much for
Labour, and Nikki Kaye of Auckland Central for National.
