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NZ foreign minister Murray McCully - Source: ONE News -
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Sunday April 19, 2009: Q+A's Guyon Espiner interviews Foreign Minister Murray McCully
GUYON Minister thank you very much for coming in and joining us this morning, we really appreciate that. Let's start with Fiji, no judges now, no constitution, no free press there. How bad are things going to get in Fiji?
MURRAY McCULLY - Foreign Minister
Well pretty bad is the short answer, I think they've already got
pretty bad when you start declaring yourself dictator for life
effectively, sacking the judges, clamping down on personal
freedoms, media freedoms, it doesn't get much worse than that,
that's a traditional mould for a military dictator and it hasn't
had a happy ending anywhere in the world.
GUYON What can we do if anything at all?
MURRAY Well I think we've got to avoid seeing this as a sort of contest that we've got with the military regime to make them have elections. We can't make them have elections and we actually can't stop them wrecking their economy either if that's what they're intent on doing, and that appears to be the case. What we can do is make it clear that the international community is there to lend a hand and they need a hand when they're ready to be helped, they're not ready to be helped at the moment, we're just going to have to let them work it out. I mean there are lots of more things we could do for them but all of them are the sort of things we'd restrict the freedoms of New Zealanders for travel or to trade with them and that'd make us no better then them.
GUYON So you're ruling out any of those further actions?
MURRAY Look we'll fine tune our sanctions regime as we talk to other countries.
GUYON In what respect?
MURRAY Well we're having a look at that at the moment.
GUYON What are the most live options for changes.
MURRAY Oh there are some things we could do to perhaps toughen up on the sanctions that target members of the regime or their families.
GUYON So you'll be toughening those up?
MURRAY We could do that the Australian regime is marginally tougher than ours at the moment.
GUYON In what way would you toughen it up?
MURRAY Well we're having a look at that and I don't want to get ahead of ourselves yet. The short answer is we're not gonna do anything substantial to change the regime because most of the substantial things that would be effective would make us no better than them.
GUYON But our sanctions policy you could argue hasn't been working, I mean Fiji see New Zealand and Australia as the great white chiefs telling them what to do and it hasn't worked.
MURRAY That's correct, it hasn't worked, it hasn't brought them to hold elections yet and we're going through a process where various international bodies talk to the regime, indulge in good faith, and the presidential dialogue process, UN Secretariat, Commonwealth Secretariat have been involved in that process but all felt let down just as the Prime Ministers of Tonga and Samoa felt let down when they tried to engage and to lend a hand in the earlier days. We're dealing with a pretty tough regime here and they're not gonna bend in a hurry.
GUYON You mentioned Tonga, Tonga's not a democracy why aren't we pushing for democracy in Tonga?
MURRAY Well Tonga actually is on a path to democracy quite a remarkable transition from a feudal monarchy to a place that's going to have democratic elections next year, and it's a process the New Zealand government's very actively supporting.
GUYON But there are consistency issues here aren't there, I mean we are talking about Fiji and we're saying you've got to hold free and fair elections you can't muzzle the press, and then we've got our own leader John Key in China a one party state it's not a democracy, they don't have a free press. I mean where is the coherency in that?
MURRAY Well those are all complex issues and you have to weigh them up case by case and I think the way in which I try and look at them is this. You ask are we part of the problem or part of the solution when we engage with this regime or this country. In the case of China clearly we're making significant progress towards opening up their economy towards seeing them join international foray and lift the standards of conduct internationally. With regard to Burma we've taken a different view, there's no opportunity to engage in a constructive way there. The fact is with Fiji we have been seeing that regime move backwards, we've seen them move backwards in a giant way in the last week or so and it's clear that New Zealand's engagement there wouldn't do us any good, wouldn't do them any good in the short term, we stand ready to engage when we can be part of a solution rather than part of a problem.
GUYON You mentioned China there how concerned are you about its growing willingness to exert influence in the Pacific, they give something like 300 million New Zealand dollars in aid to Fiji, that's about half or more than half of our total overseas aid budget, I mean what do you think that they're trying to gain from that?
MURRAY Well first of all the official line is that we welcome China's generosity in the Pacific as we welcome anyone making a significant donation to people who need assistance.
GUYON Is that a truthful line?
MURRAY Well the fact is that it's a question of how the contributions are made and that's where we've got work to do to get China to understand the benefits of working more closely with New Zealand and with other donors, Prime Minister Key raised that with the Chinese when he was there this week and I understand there's a commitment to working more closely with New Zealand and Australia in the Pacific.
GUYON What do they get from this money, no one piles hundreds of millions of dollars into a small Pacific Island nation thousands of miles away from its own borders without something in return, what do you believe that China is after here?
MURRAY Well of course China is a big player not just in the Pacific but in Africa and other places as well and we can only speculate as to what the motives are, the fact is that the donations are gratefully received where they're given. I think the important point here is that - well if you want a more cynical view we're looking at a piece of ocean that's shared by the 14 smaller Pacific nations that is about seven times China's own EEZ, now clearly there are fisheries and other resource issues there that may affect their thinking, that's a speculation but I think it's a reasonable one.
GUYON They want also recognition for their one China policy they're trying to head off Taiwan isn't that what it's about?
MURRAY Well it's been the history of this thing and of course we've got a number of Pacific states that recognise Taiwan. The new leadership in Taiwan though has made a very clear undertaking that they're going to de-escalate that particular cheque book diplomacy battle in the Pacific and so far all of the indications have been positive in that respect.
GUYON That's what China's doing then isn't it, cheque book diplomacy in the Pacific?
MURRAY Well that's a term that is used to describe the actions of a number of countries, I'm not going to ascribe it to any particular nation, what I'm going to say is that I think the China Taiwan contest in the Pacific is one that is moving in a positive direction and that's the result of the new president of Taiwan making a commitment that he de-escalate that particular contest.
GUYON Okay let's move from our relations with one fairly large country China to the real super power the United States. You recently met with the Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, what signals did you get in terms of progress for what is essentially a stalled free trade agreement?
MURRAY Oh well I got a very strong signal that their trade policy is something that they're conducting a complete review of, that congress is in the process of settling down and sorting out what it thinks about free trade deals and what sort of restrictions they'd put around them, and of course the administration is only partly formed, for example the existing Secretary State Chris Hill's replacement is probably another month away from confirmation by the senate, so we're in the very early days of this administration and we've got to accept that things like trade policy and particularly the trans Pacific partnership, they're gonna take some time.
GUYON So it's gotta be stalled for quite some time, it's gonna be parked there for some years?
MURRAY Oh no no for some months and I think again we've gotta be careful about this, the new congress is going to be looking to flex its muscles a bit around trade policy, I wouldn't want to be the first to shape up with a deal for them to maul, I think we need to just look at that landscape carefully but also accept that there are significant benefits for the United States in being able to take a leadership role in a trade deal that encompasses the Pacific in the way that the trans Pacific deal does and I think that as long as we work with that - I got positive signals from the administration that they want to work with us on that particular package.
GUYON Now we've received official information - confirmation from the Defence Force that they have received an official request from the United States for further combat troops to go to Afghanistan, what is your response to that?
MURRAY Well we anticipated that we'd receive that request and indeed Secretary of State Clinton didn't really press that matter with me when I was meeting her a week or so ago because she understood that we had in process a review of our commitment to Afghanistan and to the region and that's got both the military and a civilian component to it.
GUYON What did they formally ask for?
MURRAY Oh well the particular request has been for further military assistance.
GUYON They want our special forces, our SAS troops.
MURRAY It's been no secret for many months that they would love to have our special forces back in Afghanistan, there have been one or two other specific proposals as well which I can't go into here and there's been a large shopping list on the civilian front which I suspect is the same list that's been taken elsewhere.
GUYON But just to clarify they have sought the SAS troops and other combat actions as well, other combat troops.
MURRAY They've sought specifically special forces, SAS, but that's not new, now I think you could say that that request has been on the table from well into the time of the previous government as well.
GUYON Yes but there's been a formal request.
MURRAY Yes there has.
GUYON And what is your response going to be?
MURRAY Well the response is that we're having a look at what we can do at the moment, we started that process before I was in the US, we knew that they were having their own review...
GUYON But the special forces is a different matter, we've sent them what three times now haven't we?
MURRAY Three times that's right.
GUYON So they're presumably in an operational state to go, so are you going to send them?
MURRAY Well we're going to look at that in the context of our complete package of support, not just for Afghanistan but for the region, remember...
GUYON What are the considerations here though Minister when you make that decision just regarding the SAS what are the considerations, is it operational, is it principle, what is it?
MURRAY Well both of course.
GUYON In principle would you be prepared to send the SAS to Afghanistan?
MURRAY Well that's not a decision for me to make, what I'd say to you is that the government has agreed to look at what it can do to help from a military point of view, we've first of all got to look at what we can do, gotta look at our resourcing issues. Now clearly the rollover of our provincial reconstruction team in Bamyan for another year that takes us to September 2010, does create resource and capacity issues going forward, simply the rollover process creates those pressures.
GUYON Can we send the SAS operationally or not, are we in a position to.
MURRAY I haven't had that advice, what I can tell you is that we're looking at, those issues alongside the SAS deployment issue and saying if something else happens somewhere else closer to home in our region what is our capacity to react, remember Afghanistan is not our biggest deployment, Timor-Leste is, we've got significant numbers of people in the Solomons, we've seen trouble in Tonga, we've seen trouble in other places.
GUYON Are you worried about Fiji?
MURRAY I'm not specifically including Fiji in this equation but we do have to look at what we can do in our region if called upon to do so, and so we can't just look at one element of our military infrastructure in isolation.
GUYON How long have you told the United States - when are we going to get back to them on this?
MURRAY Our current review is headed for August which is roughly the same time as the elections in Afghanistan of course, we could crib a few months, sorry a few weeks on that if we tried hard, and certainly the Hague Conference which I went to a couple of weeks ago, raised some newer issues around civilian support and we're trying to make sure that we look at all of those issues as well.
GUYON This is an unwinnable war isn't it, it's been seven or eight years, it's more dangerous than ever in Afghanistan now, I mean isn't this the unwinnable war?
MURRAY Well I think it is a challenging environment in which to work and I think New Zealanders would expect us, if we made any decision to do anything to know what the way out was as well, need to know what the exit strategy is, and then of course....
GUYON So we haven't got any sense of that, we're seeing a conflict which just has not end in sight, we're not prepared to buy into that is that what you're saying?
MURRAY Well no I'm saying that the Americans themselves are very concerned about President Obama's been very clear that he wants an exit strategy and New Zealand is keen to have that sort of discussion, to understand what their thinking is there and what the Australian thinking is, but bear in mind that this is not a new problem. The other question we have to ask is, is this our fight, and I think New Zealanders have to say do we have an interest in participating regardless of the level of difficulty.
GUYON Well let me ask you your own question, is it our fight?
MURRAY Well I think to some extent we've already answered that by making a commitment of SAS and the PRT to Afghanistan, New Zealanders travel, New Zealanders go to resorts, the reason we would commit to doing something in Afghanistan is not to try and get something back from the US or anyone else but to protect New Zealanders because we have as much interest as anyone in having a safe world.
GUYON Is this safe world question in Afghanistan does it all boil down to the Middle East to the Israelis and the Palestinians, do you think that that's the route cause and that's where we need to focus a solution to?
MURRAY Whether it's the root cause or not it's certainly the flash point that can turn things in a very ugly direction quite quickly and we're very focused on that.
GUYON Would it be fair to say that you were aligning yourself more with Israel than the Labour government had as we've seen realignment here?
MURRAY I think it's fair to say that New Zealand has taken a determinedly balanced position in the middle, we want to be in a position where we can say to both sides that they need to pull back from the brink.
GUYON Sure I respect that but did that require some realignment, you were very reluctant weren't you to criticise the strikes on Gaza, was that part of a deliberate strategy to realign ourselves and edge closer to Israel than Labour had been?
MURRAY Not to edge closer to Israel, to edge closer to the centre line, to the balance position in the middle and if you'd have crossed my name or John Key's name out of those statements and put in there President Obama or Secretary of State Clinton or Gordon Brown or Prime Minister Rudd, it would have been very difficult to see the difference between what I was saying, Prime Minister Key was saying and those other world leaders.
GUYON Is this broadly emblematic of what you are doing direction wise in foreign policy, are you lining up more behind our old allies, the United States, Australia, the UK, and less with the United Nations than Labour had been?
MURRAY I think that's fair to say yes. Look New Zealand's foreign policy isn't owned by any government or any political party, it's owned by the public of New Zealand and so what we've tried to do is take positions that broadly represent what we see as being the consensus of New Zealanders around those things.
GUYON For example the United Nations are staging a conference against racism in Geneva very shortly, is New Zealand going to participate in that?
MURRAY Well that's a very topical issue because right now the foreign ministers in Europe are debating that matter, they were on a telephone conference call yesterday, the Australians and ourselves are certainly looking at this issue, and it could go either way at this stage but the Foreign Minister in Australia Steven Smith's made it pretty clear that the discussions would have to take more positive turn for them to turn up, and the Canadians are out, the US is out, it's quite possibly that New Zealand will withdraw alongside nations like for example Germany and Holland as well.
GUYON So New Zealand will probably pull out of this?
MURRAY That's a distinct possibility the way the text was moving when I last saw it.
GUYON Is that because there are fears that it may be too critical of Israel?
MURRAY Well that was the history of the first such conference seven years ago which is why the nations I've mentioned have been so sensitive about it right now, but of course it's not just a question of what the text says it's a judgement call also about just how nasty the conference is going to get when delegates have the text in front of them and have free rein and that's a concern that the Australian Foreign Minister and I have been talking about in the last few days.
GUYON You also pulled New Zealand's bid to the United Nations Human Rights Commission, that's a body you've called despicable in the past and you've made some quite inflammatory comments about it being an assembly of dictatorships, you've talked about it being a group of terrorist sympathisers outright whackos including human rights luminaries such as Zimbabwe, Syria, Libya and China.
MURRAY That's correct.
GUYON Which category does China fit into, whackos or...?
MURRAY Look the quote you've got there is from a newsletter I wrote whilst in Opposition, I've moved into a more moderate mode as I represent New Zealand...
GUYON So you didn't believe what you were writing?
MURRAY No look let me be very clear. The Human Rights Council requires major reform and it's been certainly engaging in a number of activities that have had most of the people who think like New Zealand thinks, outraged, and we were standing - put our candidacy forward under the previous government to be an agent for change, and the question we had to ask was can a re-engaged Obama administration on that council bring more change more quickly than we could have, and we made the pragmatic and I believe uncomplicated decision that they could do more than we could do.
GUYON Are we expecting to get something back in return, is this a favour to the US?
MURRAY No it's a pragmatic decision that is designed to achieve the most change most quickly at the Human Rights Council, but if you like it also sends a signal to the Obama Administration that New Zealand is there in a pragmatic and uncomplicated way to work with them in these international fora.
GUYON Alright that's about all we've got time for this morning, thanks very much for coming in Foreign Minister Murray McCully.
